Digitasku OÜ (00:00) And I think sometimes people confuse raising the bar with a job description and they're not raising the bar, they're just making it really difficult for the right people to apply for the role. And there's a difference, right? A bar raiser could be values alignment, it could be specific critical skills that you don't have in a team, right? Like what are the top five, three to five things and not 10 20. The moment you leave that list open for too long, things become a little bit ridiculous. You can always include nice to haves, but I also like to include language like, hey, if you don't feel that you're perfect for this role, apply anyway. We would love to hear from you. If you want someone to walk away from a process, not feeling deflated and awful and unsuccessful, you want them to still succeed wherever they go in future. And so I think it's very valuable when you're attracting and selecting talent to also create meaningful connection, especially in a virtual remote environment. Eero (01:02) Welcome to the Relancer podcast, where we talk about talent acquisition topics. I'm Eero, the co -founder of Relancer, the platform where employers connect with freelancer recruiters. Today we have Nadja, and we're talking about how to craft compelling Welcome, Nadja. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (01:20) Great. Hey, Eero, so great to be on your podcast. Thanks for having Eero (01:23) can you tell us a little about your experience in storytelling in talent acquisition? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (01:30) Yeah, I don't think I knew that it existed pre 2016. And so during my journey at GitLab and the, what do they call them? People technology team. So having people engineers in a people team, I learned through storytelling on how to build products, right? And so I actually learned a lot about storytelling from our product manager team. And how valuable that can be when you even talk about features, when you talk about talent acquisition and job descriptions. And I started using that as a method in my team to also help explain how something can work, right? And so I think it's very valuable when you're attracting and selecting talent to also create meaningful connection, especially in a virtual remote environment. Eero (02:17) Yeah, it's super interesting. That's something what I have heard from other recruiters or people in as well that they take stuff from product. So the process of, for example, data, like measuring what is working, it's in a way, I think it's from like product development. So that's interesting to see that storytelling in a way maybe is also. At least your inspiration was from the product, so that's cool to you share a fun fuck -up story about Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (02:53) Yeah. angle is really good. So I had this amazing engineering manager back at GitLab. This was years ago. And this story might have been shared already from an open source perspective. GitLab was very transparent back then and even now. We had a situation where we were using an applicant tracking system and the button that emails a candidate and the button where you leave feedback at that point from a user experience was shocking. Like it was really bad. It looked exactly the same. The colors was the same. And we were quite new, me and this hiring manager, we were quite new to this applicant tracking system, this ATS, right? And this hiring manager was one of those people that were doing all the right things when no one was looking, right? So genuinely a great person, cared a ton about candidate experience, et cetera. But he wrote the Eero (03:27) I don't know. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (03:49) candidate feedback directly to the candidate by pressing the wrong button. Right. And so this horrible email had gone out to this candidate where nothing he said was terrible. There was very constructive and some positive feedback, but it was super technical, right? It was written in a very non -empathetic way because it was internal feedback being written on a scorecard. And it definitely lacked also a story. It lacked the Eero (04:01) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (04:18) the opportunity to share feedback with the candidate was a little bit too cold and, and, and, you know, like plus minus signs on the positives and red flags of the candidate. And I noticed it. So as he sent it out, I noticed it and I immediately hopped on a call with him and we treated it like we would with a bug or a feature or something that's gone wrong in engineering, right? We immediately had like a, like a SOS retrospective and we made a decision instantly on how we were going to react to the situation. And I love that he allowed me to suggest ways that we can fix it and suggest ways to also take the immediate pressure away from him. And so even by me just sharing with him that it's okay, these things can happen, I think took all the pressure away instead of him feeling like... Eero (05:11) Mm -hmm. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (05:14) he could be fired for doing something like this from a people and culture perspective. And so we hopped on this call with this candidate, we immediately explained what happened and it was such a good call. It was so nice to share like what we did wrong, why it happened, showing, you know, the candidate, the buttons and the user experience and also then taking a moment and spending time with the candidate on why we declining. I feel like that in itself. Eero (05:26) Yeah. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (05:42) that person became an advocate for GitLab, whether they got hired or not, right? And that's what you want. You want someone to walk away from a process, not feeling deflated and awful and unsuccessful. You want them to still succeed wherever they go in future. And so, yeah, it was quite a horrible experience for everyone. I could have easily panicked and I have panicked many times before and after that moment in terms of talent acquisition. But it was also a lesson for me. And the biggest takeaway was I don't think our documentation was very good in talent acquisition at the time around where to leave feedback in this applicant tracking system, right? And so it gave me the opportunity to also take a bit more ownership, make sure people understand where, what button, how does it work? And so that led me to the world of documentation, which in the end became a huge part of my career and journey, both at GitLab, but also now at Camunda and other companies that I've worked at. Eero (06:25) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (06:37) Yeah, so I feel like the the end result was a very good learning opportunity from all sides. Eero (06:43) Yeah, I think there's like two sides of the story. One is, of course, the learning opportunity. If something goes wrong, we usually make changes and learn from it. But there is like opportunity also. What do you do after if something goes wrong? Like if you deal with the situation, it actually can maybe have, like you said, quite good experience for the candidate. So in the end, you're messed up. And then sometimes it's even funny. I did my first mass reach out or something and we had a template. In the template we had a super random name and accidentally we sent it to everybody. And then of course some people were frustrated. But some of them were also like, oh, I didn't know that you know my nickname. They were also joking around and so on. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (07:27) Oh no. Good. Eero (07:43) But now I have every time I send something out I have anxiety and I'm always checking everything double and making sure everything is correct. Of course we haven't done this kind of mess reach out anymore in that way but it was in the early days and then it can be of course a good learning opportunity and how do you deal with that. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (07:43) Yeah Yeah. And I'm sure thousands of talented position experts around the world, even at very senior level have made that mistake at some point, right? We all know that, yeah, automation is good until you accidentally sent out a mass message with the wrong name. It did obviously get attention. So I'm sure you got some really interesting responses in the end. Eero (08:14) And yeah. Yeah, yeah. So at least we got the attention on that side. But before we jump into... So our topic is job description and storytelling. But before we jump into that, I think it's very important get to the fundamentals. You have to make sure that you're actually looking for the right person before you make that job description. If you get it wrong, in a way, it's... It can be super good, but if you're basically getting the wrong people in, it doesn't matter at all. So how can you align job description with of the profile that you're actually looking for? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (09:04) Yeah, I think so many people still spend way too little time on that briefing that like kicking off that process with hiring managers. And I'm really proud at Camunda even coming into Camunda this year, I'm really proud to see that we have like really solid hiring briefings. Obviously we can always improve efficiency and the time it takes a hiring manager. But I think to me, it's about like looking at the role and focusing on who's my hiring panel. Do they need to provide input into the hiring briefing if they're going to be interviewing for the role? So I think one like core item is I've noticed nearly in a lot of retrospectives, you have this amazing hiring briefing between the talent acquisition partner and the hiring manager, but the sourcing team might be missing. The hiring panel might be missing, right? And then midway through the hiring panel might be like, Oh, I thought this person should also have X and everyone realizes, well, this X meaning like experience in, I don't know, Ruby on Rails, if it was an engineer or some open source element, right? I thought this candidate had to have that and all of a sudden you realize, well, it wasn't in the job description. It wasn't part of the hiring brief. So this person on the hiring panel is declining people for the wrong reasons. And so I feel like that initial kickoff sync or async has to be done really well. and you've got to make sure there's complete calibration on what you've added to that hiring briefing, that it also makes logical sense for the role, the level of the position, right? I still see people over -leveling a position or adding experience that's not necessarily needed for a specific level in a company. And so it's really about that early stage calibration, a good debate about what should be on there and what shouldn't be on there. Eero (10:31) that's our experience. But it also makes it much easier to evolve the level of presentation. I think it's very important to be able to know a different company that's really a problem. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (10:55) and before you go live and not see it as a quick step to just get something live on a careers page. So I still think it starts there. There's so much that needs to go into that briefing. I don't know if you want to dig into the details, but I have a bunch of ideas, Eero (11:04) I will take it to start, please. One of the things that you mentioned was getting read unnecessary. Actually, I think in the first episode with Ellis, he mentioned that 80 %... Like, if you have a job description that requires 10 skills, if men would apply and they have like... 70 % or something like that, they would apply. They were like, okay, I didn't have this and this, but I will apply. But the interesting part is that most of the females, if you don't have basically 100%, they will not apply. And then in that way, if you put unnecessary requirements on the job description, actually you can have less candidates applying for the position. And that's in a way... super bad if they're not necessary skills. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (12:07) Absolutely. And I think sometimes people confuse raising the bar with a job description and they're not raising the bar. They're just making it really difficult for the right people to apply for the role. And there's a difference, right? A bar raiser could be values alignment. It could be specific critical skills that you don't have in a team, right? But I'm not a hundred percent sure bar raisers, things like a qualification or 10 years experience versus three to five years experience, right? And I think you and I have both noticed that years of experience can be such a subjective measure. As someone that's now worked in different companies in one year, one company can be so different than four or five years at another company. And what you do with that time, you can repeat a year after year, right? At the same company, if it's an enterprise, very large organization, or you could have like completely different experience year on year for four or five years. So I think it's really about if you, if you are adding like, Eero (12:43) Mm -hmm. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (13:06) critical skills, et cetera, make sure that they do match up to what you need in that position. And that can still be bar raising. It doesn't necessarily have to have this long list of things. Camunda has done something interesting before I joined, so I won't take credit for it. I'll give my colleague Denise, who's currently on parental leave, I'll give her some credit. She has a max amount that you can add to a job description, right? So she limited it to five. Like what are the top five, three to five things and not 10, 20. The moment you leave that list open for too long, things become a little bit ridiculous. You can always include nice to haves, but I also like to include language like, hey, if you don't feel that you're perfect for this role, apply anyway. We would love to hear from you. And I know that can increase noise in a hiring pipeline, but this is... Eero (14:00) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (14:01) part of building global diverse teams is making sure someone doesn't feel completely intimidated by this perfect role, right? And rather, you know, have the benefit of the doubt and applying anyway. And so yeah, I like limiting the amount of things that you can add. And I still see too many folks maybe focusing on a specific persona that they want in a role. Like, imagine me saying, we need more of you, right? In the world, we need more of you in my team. Eero (14:03) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (14:29) And at the end of the day, I'm building this whole job description just around what you can bring. I don't think that's a good or inclusive way. Your background and my background is entirely different. And yet we'll probably be able to head on head deliver really great work in different environments at the same time or in the same environment at the same time. And so I think it's about like what critical skills do you need for that role? If it's a manager role, what manager skills or competencies do you require? So what are the core elements? What values, you know, Eero (14:35) That's it. Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (14:58) from a company perspective, does this person need to align with? And then digging into, okay, technical or tactical or functional skills. What does that look like? And stop there. Don't continue that list to all these things that might not necessarily exist. Yeah, and there's no such thing as perfect candidates. I think we all know the difference between red and yellow flags, right? Eero (15:03) they're getting into, okay, technical, technical, functional skill. What does that look like? And stuff that you don't see in that lesson too will be taken away from you. Yeah, and there's lots of things that can be made. People will know that a great, a yellow flag, right? A great flag is made in the first place. Well, on this line, it's a pretty good flag. A yellow flag might be... Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (15:23) red flag is someone that's completely misaligned to the role or misaligned to a specific critical skill for the role. And a yellow flag might be someone focused quite a bit on remote work instead of the mission of the company. Right. And so I think it's about not creating long lists of stuff that at the end of the day is not actually evaluating the person across the job description. Eero (15:34) Thank you. I think it's about creating a lot of the same stuff. You're interesting. You mentioned, I have never looked into the yellow flag. But when I hire, I do have red flags. But my red flags are more cultural. So for example, if they are team players or not, and if they are teachable for me, very important. Because I can have a super senior person coming in. But if they're not teachable and able to adapt, it's going to be very hard to work with them. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (16:02) Okay. Eero (16:18) So for me, those kind of personalities, however we call it, are the most important red flags. But I would also have, I usually try to understand what are the three most essential things about the person, what they must have. It can be a personality, a skill, or some kind of skill that they must have. And then, like you said, three to five probably is the maximum you can have. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (16:46) Yeah. Yeah. Eero (16:48) because everything else is in a way nice to have. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (16:52) Yeah, I would take those instead of personality traits, I would focus on competencies. So for example, the one you just mentioned, someone that's being able to adapt to change more like agility, right? If they're not going to be able to remain agile, and resilient to change, then it will probably not work work out. So I focus a tiny bit less on the person's actual personality and more around like, are they agile enough? Are they going to be able to be resilient in what Eero (17:01) and competence. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (17:21) what's coming in the next 6, 12, 24 months. And yes, I still see those as critical and core competencies and matching that. Yeah. Eero (17:32) So why is storytelling important? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (17:35) have an in real life example that happened this week. So you can go check it out on my LinkedIn if you like. But I think in the world of work in 2024, post pandemic, post what the world has gone through, right? Whether you're working a hybrid in an office remotely or, you know, enjoy going on a commute every day and working in a building. I think, The biggest thing people are looking for is working with other people that are good people and that can create meaning in life. Right? So any meaningful mission or opportunity to provide more meaningful insight to why you should choose a specific role over the other becomes really critical in the world of work. And I've, I've noticed this in me and myself in my journey. I care a lot less about job titles where I am now in my journey. versus maybe two years ago, where I was still thinking, my goodness, I've got to go on this growth trajectory and I've got to get to VP of people or eventually CPO. And I think to me, it's much less about that. It's about working with great people and great leaders. And I think the title would matter a lot less to candidates if they know they're going to be working with an incredible manager or an incredible set of leaders. And I think it's through storytelling, you can tell that story versus on paper. Eero (18:54) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (19:00) in just a very functional job description. It's really difficult to see that. And so I think there's, and there's also so many mediums of storytelling, right? I still like using video right now, short, impactful video messages of, I don't know, two to five minutes max, probably less if you can. And I think you've got a nearly, Eero (19:17) Thank you. I think you're probably near the sort of green area. So like, what is it? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (19:29) focus on three areas. So like, what is it about the company that's so unique? Why should someone show interest in the company? And then secondly, like, why should someone work with you as that hiring manager? Who are you? Like, why? Why should they show any interest to have you as their leader? And then lastly, like, what are you trying to do with this role? What is the bigger mission here? What will this role impact? Why are you hiring for the role? And I think that storytelling is super impressive. We, um, Eero (19:38) Thanks for taking the time to watch. What are we doing right now? What is the state of Michigan here? What's going on? Why are you... I that's very funny. We are, I understand, tradition. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (19:59) I launched a position in my team this week and I'm blown away. Like I added a very basic loom video. I recorded it once I decided like efficiency. I don't have time to rerecord things. I made a plan. I decided what am I going to say in this video? Like what are the three, um, agenda or topics or narratives that I need to share, recorded it. And I think it was three minutes and 300 people reviewed my, my video. Eero (20:26) We have a few more. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (20:28) in a matter of 24 hours, like I don't see that kind of data and that kind of return on investment that I've seen in any other way of storytelling, right? But you can also do it through text. And I think don't be afraid of linking things back to the bigger mission of a specific team. And so if I can apply to more product and engineering teams, if a particular team is working on a really cool feature, a really cool product, Eero (20:42) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (20:56) It doesn't help just using internal jargon and lingo to sell the position. No one's going to know what you're talking about, right? But if you like, we working on the, I don't know, the, on this button on the website, or we working on this element of the feature of our product, right? We working on the connectors team that's building products for other engineers that are using our product, right? If you, if you're selling it through storytelling and what this person will actually be working on. Chances are of reaching a passive candidate is so much higher, right? Then just sharing a generic spec that took, I don't know, a minute to create and looks like every other position on the internet. And so your competition is so broad and so wide that unfortunately it nearly then becomes a compensation game. And that's not what it should be. It should be like, if this person joins this team, this is the impact they're gonna have on the company's mission. Eero (21:32) just sharing engineering experience. I've got a minute to create and we're gonna save each other. So you can feel the competition is so good, and so is mine. Thanks for that. This is the inside of the company. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (21:56) And this is why they should join your team. And I still find that the most meaningful experience. It's part of the reason I think I apply for roles, but it's also part of the reason I see very high performing top talent around the world applying to work with some of my engineering or hiring managers that I've worked with now and in the past. Eero (22:16) think you touched up to two interesting points. One is storytelling. In essence, it can be used to tell others who you as a company, as a team are. And for them, they can then relate if they are the same people who want to join. For example, like you said, you want to work with people and this is meaningful and work with people who you like and so the work can be enjoying. But for somebody else, maybe they're looking for something else and then if you use the storytelling, right? We're creating amazing products, we're working super hard. For example, if you take, I don't know, Elon Musk, working for him is probably super hard. He says like, you have to work at least 60 hours a week and then even in the weekends, but... But we are changing the world and if this is something you want to do, you should join him on doing things. So I think it can be super powerful, like communicating and then bringing people in. And the other thing, what you mentioned, I think is, you can tell me if you have seen it and how much you have seen it, but I haven't seen on job description describing who are the hiring. Who are you joining? Who's going to lead you on the way? Who's going to be there for you? I think this can be very important and can be a thing that sets you apart from others because if others use the regular templates, you can already do the storytelling, then you can tell who you are as a hiring manager This is, I think, a huge difference from others. But have you using the part that... they have this who is the hiring manager. I think I have seen it once with one company. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (24:08) Yeah, I have seen it, which is why I'm working so hard on telling the story and creating video content. And I have to admit, it is the hiring manager that has to create the video, right? It is the hiring manager that needs to tell the story. It's not talent acquisition. And so what I would say to any talent acquisition partner now is your job is to convince the hiring manager to tell the right story so you can get it out to the world. No one wants to join the talent acquisition. team to work with them if they joining another team, unless the role is in the team, right? And so it's important to know the talent acquisition partners, the enabler, they are not the person you'll be spending all your time with once you hired. In fact, unless you are hiring for that company, you probably won't spend time with that team, right? And so it's critically important unless you're joining a talent acquisition team that you start as a TA partner or as a director of TA, start leveraging your hiring managers. It's part of their job. hire. It's part of their job to attract talent as well, in my opinion. I think from a priority list perspective, hiring should always be number one, no matter what you do at the company, if your team is obviously hiring and scaling. Something else I wanted to mention was I, as a VP of people previously, so having had this slightly different angle of talent acquisition in the world of talent development, if you look at all the reasons why people leave a company, We often see this written as a quote, right? People leave managers, people leave bad managers, people leave a specific leader. They don't leave companies. Like we often see that. And if you tie that back to the recruiting process, you should be transparent about who the hiring manager is and, you know, what they are bringing to this team or to this role. And this, the transparency that creates is exactly what you see. It also eliminates people from applying for roles that they... Eero (25:43) Mm -hmm. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (26:06) won't succeed in that they thriving, or that they don't see any connection with a stupid example of functional example of that is, if I'm recruiting or hiring for someone that's done engineering and product talent acquisition work, and I need someone with an existing network of engineering and, and product, and folks and understanding the technical ability of that function, and it's a very senior function, right, it's a very senior role, everyone, Eero (26:29) taking more than a thousand functions. It's a very senior function right in the very senior world. Everyone outside of that engineering... Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (26:34) outside of that experience doesn't necessarily have to apply if I'm telling the story about why we need this particular skill and the team right now in our journey. Right. And so if someone is more focused on non -engineering or CS and that's their passion, this role would be quite awful for them if they don't enjoy hiring engineers or product folks. Right. And so I think it's important to, through the storytelling, that is also how Eero (26:50) Yes, and that's the passion. The goal would be quite vocal. If they don't enjoy it, they shouldn't be as apart. I think it's important to consider the story coming at least in terms of how you can be providing a certain amount of power to the world, but it's not in what the world would be. It also takes a lot of creativity and So if the company is a leader, Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (27:02) you're providing extra transparency to the world and sharing what it's not and what the role wouldn't be focusing on. It also sets really good opportunity for growth trajectory. So if the company has already got their ducks in a row in terms of a non -linear career path or a specific trajectory in sales, like imagine a very junior sales function having a clear path to an accounting executive role in future. Eero (27:18) that there's going to be a career path for specific trajectory in college. Let's imagine a very genius health lecture having a key and a path, turning us into a better future. If you've already done all that work, all that thought, you're not telling me stories. No genius health, no, I mean, I just see you position as exactly the same as you did as you were in your... Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (27:29) If you've already done all that work to build that path and to show it, if you're not telling the story, no junior salesperson would know it. And so they just see your position as this is exactly the same as what I'm doing. I'm not really interested in that. And so, you know, this top salesperson, early stage career isn't applying and you're losing out on that, on that opportunity. And someone else is going to tell that story. You just mentioned, um, Elon Musk. And so obviously there are companies that tells. Eero (27:48) stage for you to do this email to them. I'll be choosing someone else and then calling you. You can just leave it there. I'll be choosing you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (27:59) these stories every day in completely different ways from you and I, and might be doing it at a CEO level. And so as a hiring manager, you've got this unique opportunity to attract folks right now in your team. And so it is, it is an element of selling. It's an element of selling the opportunity to other people, but it's also saying what it's not. Eero (28:01) and not be doing it in the early. And so, for Harry, I'm going to leave you that. Thank Yeah, funny thing, my memory got better. I was thinking that actually I have seen recruiters or companies leveraging hiring matches, but I think I have seen it like one or two years ago, but less lately, like maybe. I just don't see it on my LinkedIn feed anymore, but I used to see it more. But one point that I would also want to point out more is definitely leverage hiring managers. What I have seen, and of course, because our platform is about freelance recruiters working as external parts. And what we have seen a lot is very often hiring managers are not fully engaged in the recruiting process. One is that they don't want to spend time, they want to work on their other stuff. So it's not one priority for them. And then in those cases, very if there is an external partner, they would bring like a HR or recruiter or somebody in between. And then that's in a way is already like a red flag that there is not a good. communication going on, there is no feedback flowing. So like you said, you should leverage hiring management. They should be fully involved or committed to the hiring success. Otherwise, it's going to be, it will take a lot of time and then the results might not be so good. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (29:50) Yeah, as someone that was external for 10 years prior to joining GitLab, I know this pain, right? You always feel like someone else is running towards the wrong people and there's this weird buffer internally. But my favorite way of getting through is over -communicating with hiring managers. That follow -up needs to be so consistent. You cannot take days to get back to a hiring manager and you can't take days to wait, right? And so instead of waiting, it is about that proactive constant communication. And instead of just like pinging someone, just like, Hey, I'm following up again. I would recommend like, Hey, I've made some progress with something and I'd love your input. I've scheduled a sync call in your calendar for Thursday. And so I think it is about that constant proactive comms plan. I am at a hiring brief. I love proactively scheduling times with hiring managers. before we've even started hiring on the progress. Because not only does it keep me super accountable to go and find those candidates or my TA team, but it also keeps the hiring manager accountable to know they've got these meetings coming up. And we all know like an unproductive meeting is a waste of time. And so it does keep everyone in the room quite focused on making progress with the role quickly. And it removes that like 80 day hiring expectation down to like 24. Eero (31:08) That's like 80 days. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (31:13) day hiring expectations. So I think it is about do a little comps plan, do a little check in plan in your hiring briefing, and make sure you have that time in their calendar already. And also asking questions like, Hey, do you have any upcoming FTO? Like, are you going on flexible time or for pay time or for parental leave or something I don't know about during the hiring process? And external, external freelancers and folks in in Eero (31:36) Mm -hmm. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (31:42) more consulting type roles will realize no one shares that upfront. And it's so frustrating when you're trying to, when you're trying to move quickly and when you know you have a goal or a deadline with the company as a vendor. Right. And so I think it is about like that, that briefing is nearly has to be a sync conversation to get everyone on the same page and to have a really good plan. Eero (31:47) Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting point that you mentioned that something I have seen also is that the thinking what usually happens is that there's a vacation coming and then what they want to do, they want to get the external partner before the vacation starts. But they made the deal already and then they don't communicate. The vendor or the partner starts to look for candidates and they will have the candidates and then the person is a right manager, whatever. going to be on vacation and then you basically lose the candidates because you're like basically answering them like I don't know two weeks later. There's a really good thing what I learned from one agency. They hour rule. So you have to answer the candidates in 48 hours and I think this is even if you're in -house it's a good rule to. probably use. It doesn't matter if you're extended or in -house, that you are quick in answering because it seems in a way funny, but sometimes you even can lose somebody in 24 hours. I've seen it that somebody becomes available and then tomorrow they already have a new job. I'm like, what happened? So two weeks is like, I don't know, like a century. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (33:25) Exactly. Exactly. that situation. When I left GitLab, I joined a company and I realized on day four, it was the wrong company. Like I realized I made a huge mistake. It wasn't the right company for me at the time. And I resigned on day four. And I knew it was December. I knew I needed to find another role quickly. And I wanted to work for a meaningful company. And I literally had interviews lined up for the very next Monday. So that was on a Thursday. I lined up interviews. I worked right through the weekend to apply for roles and land interviews. Monday had interviews by the Wednesday I had offers. And so it works like that, right? Especially for folks that are quite proactive and quite dedicated to finding a great role and doing it quickly. And in my opinion, top talent doesn't sit around waiting opportunities. They are Eero (34:10) Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (34:24) They are being selected so often, right? They are being reached out so often. But something else I will say about this FTO and time off. If in the hiring brief, if a manager is like, oh, and by the way, I've got two weeks vacation, starting on Monday, and today is Wednesday, so less than a week away. And they're like, but you could work on candidates so long. I love asking the question of who can interview before you? Who in your hiring panel? So let's turn that process upside down. let's get a peer interview done. Let's get your skip level manager to get involved, right? By the time you're back, we have three top candidates for you to see. And it's interesting how positively hiring managers react to that because now they realize not only are they be able to take vacation, but also their workload is going to change a little bit. They're not going to see, I don't know, 10 candidates or seven candidates. They're going to see the top three that the hiring panel has already met with. And so it's just a really clever and smart way to turn the process upside down when you need to. I think waiting for a hiring manager to come back from vacation is not good enough in 2024 and beyond. Not in the world of where talent is making decisions and companies is nearly second to picking candidates. Eero (35:46) Yeah, that's definitely a good approach to use. Like you mentioned, it can take some stress away from the hiring manager also because they want to actually go on a vacation and out basically from the work. Otherwise, they might be still be engaged somehow. But what is your process of creating a job description? You already mentioned there is three parts that are important for you. You have this briefing meeting in the beginning. What is the full? process for you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (36:17) Yeah, I think it is about having a proper briefing, having specific skills matched out that you want for, having the functional elements. So what is the tactical and functional or technical elements of the role? But I also think it's important to have your questions planned for the interview process upfront and having all of it. scheduled into your applicant tracking system or whatever you're using to interview, right? And having that entire scorecard process ready, that shouldn't be an afterthought that should be done upfront. Regular check -ins already scheduled onto a hiring I think it's important that the hiring panel knows exactly what they're interviewing for. So gone are the days where all the interviewers on the panel are interviewing for the same thing. right? It's about this part of the hiring panel is doing a technical assessment. This part of the hiring panel is doing about values and skills alignment. And this part of the panel is maybe doing a team alignment call and bring those folks together to calibrate at the end of the process before you make a decision. I think I think it's critical. So Eero (37:20) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (37:27) That's really how I see hiring briefings nowadays. Every part of the hiring panel has a specific role to play, and they don't all play the same role. They don't all just repeat the same questions. Yeah, I think that's critically important. I love adding compensation to any job description. I really like being very clear upfront, especially now in the world of work where it is competitive. Eero (37:41) Yeah, I think that's pretty good. Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (37:54) but also pay transparency is becoming a real thing. More and more countries are making it and more and more US states or even, and European countries are starting to hop onto the bandwagon of pay transparency is here to stay. And so I think pay transparency is super important. And then instead of bulking up the entire briefing process or what needs to go into that job description, just having good links from that JD that's going publicly available to other things like, Eero (37:58) Okay. Thank you. What's the best way to take care of your health? Thank And then instead of posting that for you, we're here. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (38:23) company benefits, how the company operates, is there a handbook or not? What other transparency can you create for the Eero (38:24) Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (38:31) And then setting the expectations with the hiring managers on how you would accept candidates and how you would not accept candidates, right? So having that single equitable hiring pipeline instead of getting it on DM and through all sites, because that's not an equitable experience for anyone. Eero (38:31) Yeah, I mean, this is expectations. Okay. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (38:50) And so just sticking to a really good, compliant and equitable hiring approach and setting those expectations of what to do if someone has a lead, how to do a referral, where to reach out, et cetera. And then obviously keeping your candidate comms. So knowing that the hiring manager knows how to communicate to the candidate if they need to. They don't do so via some Slack community that they're doing it through the applicant tracking system or directly through you as their TA partner. Eero (38:52) Thank you. What to do in terms of our needs. How to do it in a federal way. they go to survive. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (39:20) and centralizing that com's elements and portals. Eero (39:24) One of the things that stand out for me was having the scoring card up front. Because this is, I think, one very powerful tool to get on the same page. If everybody understands what you're looking for, what you're measuring, then in a way we should be on the same page who are we looking at, what kind of job description. Because if you're measuring something that's important for us, we should put it on the job description if we are now interviewing. We should ask the questions that help us measure those things that are in the scoring card. So I think this is a very powerful way of doing it. Otherwise, if you do it later, then maybe the scoring card is going to be very different than what you have before. And then you're in trouble, actually, because you're basically looking for different people. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (40:18) Yeah, know if this has ever happened to you, right? But this has happened to me so many times with hiring managers where the hiring manager has some executive above them. Let's say it's a senior leadership team member, and they put this amazing candidate through the process. And the candidate has this final interview with the senior executive leader and the senior executive leaders like, I don't understand why I'm interviewing this candidate. This was awful. It's like, hard no, like I'm not interested in this candidate. And all of a sudden I realized, well, the senior leadership team member wasn't in the hiring briefing and, you know, didn't sit in that calibration session that we had right up front. That's why I'm saying the entire hiring panel, including your execs and your senior leadership team needs to be aligned and calibrated to what the hiring manager is saying we are hiring. Otherwise you'll just restart that process over and over again. And by the time the person reaches the executive individual, all of a sudden the expectations changes. So again, I think it's just like, it's about that early stage calibration, getting everyone on the same page, sync or async. I love doing it sync. I know that's tricky with time zones and global alignment. And so even asynchronously, just being very, very clear that how you will not deviate from this expectations. And I find that's also how you move through a hiring pipeline the fastest and how you bring the right candidates forward. Eero (41:31) So even anything that you can do is very, very easy. So that's you can alleviate problems, fix limitations. And I find that's the stuff that you can do for every client that you have. And how you can provide the information that you need. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (41:46) The quickest, right? Eero (41:48) Yeah, definitely. We could spend a little bit more time in the beginning. But usually what happens, this is what I see very commonly, is that there is not good briefing. Maybe they use templates or whatever, and people are not on the same page. Then they start sourcing. They get people in. They start interviewing. Then they see, OK, like you said, why am I talking with this person? This is not who I'm looking for. And then they basically. During this process, they recalibrate. And then they will get there. But it takes a lot of more resources. And then it's slower and less efficient this way. But I think this is super common. At least that's what I see a lot. So it's very easy to skip in the beginning. And let's do it fast. Let's get going. You already need the candidate. And we don't want to spend the time to put the work in. So they're on the same page. So we have these three parts to make. Let's go back to the job description. We have three parts. Can you maybe give us examples how to do that? Like start with the company. So we want to say who we are, what is our story. Can you give some examples how to? So if the companies don't have a good story yet, how they can come up with that? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (43:07) I think it's about going back to the employer brand. If your employer branding story is not matching your corporate brand story, that's probably part of the issue, right? And so I love going straight to marketing teams and telling them if you had to, or you know, a revenue operations team or a sales operations or sales enablement team, how do you sell the company to your customers? How do you talk about this product? And... Explain it to me like you would like what is the simplest way to explain what this company does and why someone should show interest. I think when you start aligning the corporate brand and the employer brand, you get this very powerful, meaningful message, right? And if that message is always the same, people are going to start remembering when I was still at GitLab in 2017 or 2018, we switched our language to, you know, the first, like, I think it was first end to end DevOps platform in the world, right? Open source as well. So we threw in open source, but we had this like open source DevOps platform sentence that we just kept using over and over again. And it became so familiar. People became so familiar with the brand at the time. Eero (44:14) Thank you. Thank you. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (44:26) that even if you had to ask a candidate, if you had to meet them on the street drinking coffee, like what does GitLab do? Everyone started using this language as like, oh, it's a DevOps platform, right? That it's open source that works end to end. They've obviously changed that story now because they've got an IPO and it's a very different environment. My point is what happened there was the employer brand just aligned so well with the corporate brand and messaging. And I feel like it's about sharing this message with the world. Eero (44:41) The help is to change those three helps because they're different. The other is a very different thing. My point is, what happens is, like, we've run so well since we've ran in the beginning. And I feel like I'm starting to share this with you all. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (44:56) When someone walks away from a job description or from a company because they get declined, you want them to become a client or you want them to become an advocate of the brand. You don't want them to be deflated. You don't want them to feel like they're completely unsuccessful. And so even when, if you think about your job description, the candidate walking away from this job, what is the message they're going to tell the entire network and friends and family and other people that does what they do that you might need in future, right? Eero (45:00) you want them to become smart, you want them to become an advocate of trust, you don't want them to feel something maybe other people. And so even when you think about your future, the candidate who's going to be the strength of this job, we're going to make sure you can tell that it's not even the strength that's been coming in other people, that that's what they do, you can visualize it in the future. Right? It's very good to tell. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (45:25) If they're going to tell the right story, because you wrote the right story down and you created the right experience, they become a network of people. I've had so many candidates that refer other candidates because they had a good experience and they understood what the job was about and what the company does. And they become organic referrers for the organization. So I think it's about that. I think it's about really aligning that messaging as to what does the company do? What's this? Eero (45:29) you socialize with people you know, you create the right experience, they become an agent. I've had so many candidates and so many of them have had a good experience and I'm just doing what they're talking about and what they're talking about. And they become organic and good. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (45:54) bigger meaning behind the organization. And then based on that, how does this position impact that mission? Right? If I'm the director of talent acquisition, how I'm going to impact a mission of growth or a company reaching a hundred million ARR or 200 million, whatever that looks like. It's like my business objective is to ensure the company meets our hiring objectives in order to reach a hundred million ARR. Right. So my job is to make sure we are growing fast enough from a human element and from a people perspective in order for the company to achieve that particular financial goal. Or if there's another mission, which is more meaningful, right. It is about impacting a specific market or changing the way the world does That becomes really meaningful. And if it's not on that job description, I think you're definitely missing out. And I think then it's about the Eero (46:31) that particular financial problem. Or if there's another mission, which is on the income side, it is about impacting the big markets or changing the way the world works. That becomes really important to talk about that transition. And I think the big, it's not that full of violence. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (46:50) core requirements and what this position is all about. Eero (46:55) you mentioned one interesting thing, I started to think about it. So you mentioned the corporate brand aligning with the employer brand. I was thinking if it's fully possible. I will give my example. So one of our core values in Relancer is to have fun. So in early days, we did stupid stuff just for fun. So we would, for example, we would have in our product, we would have Chuck Norris jokes. randomly coming up And then if a competitor would be snooping around, it would go and show them a Borat-gif Like it's nice or something like that. So we do stuff like that, which is funny. But then we are doing a corporate plan. We still want to be fun, but we need to be serious because HR or recruitment is about trust. And then... We're thinking, OK, how much we can go, how crazy we can go. And then in a way, already, if we put two employer band, it's probably more crazy and fun. And then we have a separate, you talk about how we look from the business side to our clients, then proffessional Is this like, in a way, we still carry the value, so is this the same or maybe we just haven't leveled it? So how do you see? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (48:17) No, I think the one element of the fun is your company values. It is the intentional culture that you're creating internally for people to not take themselves too seriously and still have enjoyment at work. Right. So that's important that your internal values. The other one, the corporate branding one is the messaging that is the message you're sending into the world. So if you keep that message This is how we impacting the world of work. This is how we impacting a specific market. This is how we can impact you, no matter who's looking at that job description, your clients, or your candidates, right? That message is so consistent. But in the job description, when you start talking about the role and you start talking about the team, bringing in those values are is the transparency you want. You don't want folks that's going to struggle to also have fun at work and to laugh at lighter sides and to, through their failures without panicking and reacting to them in a positive and kind way. And so I think those are two different things. I think the company values are allowed to show on the job description and that transparency about it is important. But it's that first message about what is this company? If that's unclear or vague. People lose interest really, really quickly. Eero (49:36) what is the best way to, if you go to the hiring manager showing who the person is, like, is it doable by text? But I'm thinking the video is probably the best way, but sometimes maybe people, is there more introvert? It can be challenging to do that. So what is your experience or recommendation in there? Of course, the video is probably preferred because it can show so much more. Like one picture is... 10 ,000 words or whatever is the saying, so video is even more. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (50:08) Yeah, I think videos are beautiful. I think if you can, if you can tell a story through written text, just make sure that it's simple enough for anyone in the world to understand. If it becomes overly complicated and you're using a lot of internal jargon, again, you are alienating, you are creating an opportunity where people are not going to show interest in the role because they don't understand what you mean. And so that's my issue with written text sometimes. I still think short, meaningful videos, is absolutely critical to attract talent. And I do think you can do it through written text, but you need someone to then sense check it for you. And it might even be about asking candidates for feedback about the job description and how they would change it after they've met with you. I love using candidate feedback in continuous iteration on job descriptions on the interview process, etc. And once you've hired someone as well, right, so going back to those candidates and saying, Hey, how would you tweak it now that you work here? What would you put differently on that JD? What is it like to be on that team? something you can really pick up from the peers to that role, right? But yeah, written text is tricky. As long as you keep it simple, you can do it. still really prefer videos. I've even seen a reel. I need to find it, but I've even seen a really fun reel about it. And if you think about it in the world of work, we are competing against social media every single day. Eero (51:26) Yeah. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (51:34) And so when you go there, people do show a little bit more interest and it is different from what other people are doing. And so you're going to reach people that are not necessarily looking for a new job. Eero (51:45) Yeah, there's I think one tip to give for people who will do that is that it doesn't have to be perfect because we all have done it. Of course, the people who have doing like mentioned Loom videos, you want to make it perfect. So you spend a lot of time. And in the end, if you try to polish it, it's not going to feel very natural. So it's even actually better if something doesn't go so well. So it's fine. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (51:54) No. Absolutely. And check out some of mine on LinkedIn. None of them are perfect. You can actually see me making mistakes. So the authenticity is really there. But I think it's so much better than this like super perfect video that in all honesty wasn't authentic and isn't efficient, right? If you're spending so much time on it, that's also not helpful. You've got to get moving and finding those candidates and start sourcing. But I love authenticity in videos. Actually, my previous CEO at Remote, Joop van der Voort, he always said to me, just record the first one. If you mess up, just say it, just go, whoops, like messed up that word or whatever and just move straight along, just own it. And it does lower the perfectionistic bar, which can also be alienating for a lot of folks in tech and in the world of work when there's this perfection expectation that isn't real. Really not a good thing and not great for psychological safety at any company. Yeah, so I've unlearned a lot of perfectionistic tactics by just being myself and creating very authentic videos. Yeah, I've also had kids run into my videos. I do have children. I'm obviously in London now, so they're not with me. But I have also had kids run into my videos. And sometimes I'm just like, gosh, that could have been avoided. Or pets, you know, or significant others or partners. It's it's just about figuring out what you're most comfortable with just being authentic and getting it out there. Yeah. Eero (53:46) Yeah, I'm waiting for my cat to join the podcast, but she hasn't done it yet. So one day maybe people will see the cat because usually she would come and when I'm working or having a call, but so far not for the podcast. So we'll see. So maybe, yeah, yeah, who knows. So is there any other tips you could share about storytelling? Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (53:49) I'm sorry. You Good. Maybe she's camera shy. Eero (54:14) We already, I think, talked about briefing, the parts of job description that are important. Is there anything else you would like to Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (54:25) think having employers stories in your job descriptions is also quite nice. So I really like small quotes from the team that can share something about their experience. And this to me is part of that telling that bigger story, right. And so even if someone has a nice mess up story, like we spoke about right in the beginning of this call, right, and sharing that publicly does become this. this unfiltered approach where the person applying gets a really good feel for the team. And yeah, I think that level of transparency is very often missing. So I like employee stories. And it's nearly like customer reference stories, but internally, right, that's called an employee story. And this is like a reference that no LinkedIn reference or no other formal reference. And you'll get it's more authentic and real, etc. So having a small quote from the team is good as well. Yeah, so I like giving a bit more access to what the team is about who they're going to be working with, and why is it so awesome. And if it's, you know, if if it's hard to find awesome, because it might be a very boring area of the team, just remember the human element still makes it incredible. And that touches people. And So I still think you're going to be working with other great humans. And even if it's the most boring feature and most boring area of the product, if it's a great team, people will say apply. Yeah. Eero (55:46) Yeah, and it's a good mirror also. If nobody wants to say a good thing about the company, about the role, or about the team, then it's a question of, okay, what are we doing wrong? We should change something. So that can be definitely super powerful and also it can be very beneficial. for candidates to see what it's actually like because if you have a marketing story, we do this or we do that, we are super awesome. But if somebody says that we are actually awesome, then you will believe that. So that is definitely a strong way to go. Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (56:29) Yeah. Eero (56:34) So I think that's it for episode eight. We planned to do a 25 minute episode. It has been 58 minutes already. So, but a very interesting topic and I was very happy that we could go such deep and talk about. So this was episode eight of Relancer Podcast. If you liked this episode, feel free to subscribe and share it. Thank you for tuning in and hope to see you in the next one.