Eero (00:01.157)
Yeah, put it to recording. I will do an intro and then we can go. I have to do a new intro, but haven't put the time into it. Welcome to the ReLancer podcast, where we talk about talent acquisition topics. I'm Eero, the co -founder of ReLancer, the platform where employers connect with freelancer creators. Today we have Nadja, and we're talking about how to use storytelling in the interviewing states. Welcome again, Nadja.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (00:04.856)
Great.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (00:09.784)
Okay.

Eero (00:35.045)
Thanks, Preeze.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (00:36.664)
Yeah, it froze. I just heard howl and then it stopped. I don't know if it was mine or yours, but let me check. OK, I am connected. Yeah, let's try again.

Eero (00:38.788)
Yeah, yeah.

Eero (00:45.477)
Yeah, it works again. So we will cut it. So but welcome again, Nadja.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (00:54.008)
Great, great to be here Eero. Today I'm not dialing in from London. Today I'm back home in Johannesburg in sunny South Africa.

Eero (01:03.141)
That's nice. So for the LinzLNS, maybe who didn't hear the previous episode, so we were talking about using storytelling to create job descriptions. So we're having like a series now on different storytelling topics. Can you tell the audience maybe a little bit about your experience with storytelling?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (01:27.064)
Yeah, in the previous episode, we chatted a little bit about where I learned more about storytelling. And I can't remember if I mentioned it, but it actually came through product managers having to teach me how to tell stories when I was also managing one of the engineers in the people team back at GitLab. And so through storytelling, I was also able to triage a lot of the issues, the product issues that we had.

to build new features and products within the People Org. And so amongst my People Operations experience there, I was also running People as a product through having an amazing full -stack engineer reporting to me, and storytelling came in very handy at that. During that experience, that's also where I learned a lot about storytelling and interviewing. And Sid, the CEO, was really my coach, and many of the people...

Eero (02:12.133)
hearing that.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (02:20.919)
that was early stage GitLab actually helped shape my experience. And many of these folks didn't necessarily come from an HR or people or recruiting or talent acquisition background. But I learned so much through that experience and learning how they evaluate candidates, even in engineering, right? And how they match the company's values and skills, how they assess for those things during a live interview. And most of these interviews are virtual, so not in real life.

Eero (02:33.189)
And I learned so much from that experience, learning how they value their calendars, even an engineering writing, and how they match their company's values. And still, are they effective at things during a live interview? And most of these interviews, you can see.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (02:50.36)
And so many times body language, et cetera, could be missing in a virtual call. So making space for all those things and learning a bit through asking the right questions to let a candidate share a story or experience that they've had.

Eero (02:51.237)
So as far as I know, GitLab is a remote -first company.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (03:13.752)
That's correct. Yeah. And I'm, yeah, I'm very fortunate to now be at Communda, which is also a remote across three plus countries. And this is a process orchestration tool, right? So I feel like in the world of first DevOps, then HR tech, and now in process orchestration, it's just incredible what some of these tech companies are doing to bring the world of virtual and connectivity and bringing different companies together.

Eero (03:24.133)
Thank you.

Eero (03:37.509)
the virtual and the community together. So yeah, it's incredible.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (03:42.424)
And so yeah, it's incredible now to be on this journey.

Eero (03:48.805)
So that is an interesting point. I didn't have this question in mind. By the way, I was thinking how much of a difference you see, of course, making interviews on site and having somebody come to office, there is definitely benefits. And then doing interviews online, like what is the difference and what you should maybe keep in mind because you have less information online, probably.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (04:15.384)
Yeah, pre GitLab days, I ran an executive search firm for 10 years, right? My own company. And it was so funny how I always imagined doing interviews in real life and the time and effort I spent in getting people across Johannesburg to travel to my office in the sunny suburbs of Parkhurst to come and meet with me. Right. And it was an indicator if someone couldn't meet with you or didn't want to.

It was an indicator of their interest into the organization, which absolutely wasn't true. I think a lot of that had to do with horrible commute times, terrible traffic. We have a lot of issues with electricity. So a lot of our traffic lights weren't working. So for a candidate to show up on time is quite difficult in a working day, right? And I can't imagine doing it that way now. Many, many years later. So I would say 10.

plus years later, right? And I think the core difference is trust is a completely different factor when you're interviewing virtually. And what you put out there is also what you're going to gain in an interview. So the more public and transparent you are as an organization with candidates, the more they can access about your company without necessarily coming to a big building, you know, with all these like brick and mortar.

Eero (05:14.981)
See you.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (05:40.696)
touchy feeling brochures, et cetera. So I feel like trust is probably the biggest factor. And to me, when I step into an interview, I try and create equitable access to information to everyone that's meeting with me, whether I know them or whether I don't know them, whether in my network or a referral or not, that they have that same access to information. And so I think the biggest difference is probably trust and providing transparent access to information about the company.

Eero (05:46.981)
and even in these interview houses, I try to create accessible, accurate information to everyone that we meet. Without knowing something that I don't know, maybe it might be for a few of us, or not. But they have that same access to information. And I think the biggest difference is what we have and providing them with accurate access to information, not something that we don't. Yeah, definitely.

Good point, of course, like when they come to the office, they can see the stuff, they can see what's going on, who are maybe meet some people on the way, get a general feeling. So if you do it online, you have to show it somehow. Is it video format or pictures or stories or whatever? Like, so definitely.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (06:32.504)
Yeah, and I don't know if you go to a gym or a yoga studio or like work out somewhere, but if I walk into a space like that, there's sometimes a typical energy or like a culture that's formed in that environment, right? And you can really feel it. You nearly instantly know whether this is gonna be the right space for you or not. And after a few workouts, you're either gonna love it or you're not gonna love it that much, right? It's gonna be a space that doesn't necessarily speak to you as a human being.

Eero (06:51.973)
the right space for you to come. And after a few workouts, you either get the right experience, or you're not going to want to get the right experience, right? It's going to be a space that doesn't necessarily speak to you as a human being.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (07:01.304)
and not necessarily a place where you feel like you belong. Now, if you wipe that out completely, you have to create those things virtually, right? It can't be by accident. It can't be organically. You've actually got to be quite intentional as an organization to focus on building that culture and nurturing the values of the organization to create that energy, to create that feeling that people get when they engage with your company. And that means every single human they speak to.

Eero (07:05.381)
What the heck?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (07:29.816)
right, has to show up consistently for those values or core skills or whatever the organization is using as they, you know, operating principles as they like. I nearly want to say North Star in terms of culture. And that is going to create how candidates feel when they sort of step into your space, virtual or not. But yeah, you've got to, you've got to curate those types of things. And, and as I said, if you walk into a brick and mortar building,

Eero (07:47.941)
Yeah, so we could even say that

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (07:59.864)
regardless of what you're going to be doing there, you'll very quickly realize based on the energy of the people, the attitude, the culture that that organization has created, whether you're fitting there or not.

Eero (08:14.693)
Because basically in the first stages, there is one point of contact or the main point of contact. And then the first impression and the trust will be built by the interviewer. And that's really essential if you want the candidate to move through the process and then to join. So maybe we can focus like what could be the insights on

Why storytelling is such a powerful tool during the interviewing process? For both maybe interviewers and candidates.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (08:48.088)
Yeah, when you're reaching out. Yeah, when you're.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think to me, when you're sitting in that very first screening call as a talent acquisition partner, or maybe your organization doesn't have a TA partner yet, and it's directly with the CEO or their hiring manager, right? That first point of contact, how that the story that person is going to tell the candidate probably matters the most. That is the turning point, right? That is the opportunity with a

talent acquisition partner or the recruiter or hiring manager things, they're the gatekeeper. The candidate is also doing some gatekeeping, right? They're also starting to evaluate the organization in that call. And the story you're going to be telling the candidate during that conversation is going to start shifting their mindset and their decision about this company, whether they like it or not, whether they see themselves in that environment and in that role or not, right? And so I think,

Eero (09:37.733)
It's going to start shipping.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (09:51.672)
The number one element for me is to figure out early on, what is the corporate brand? What is that blueprint? What is that one sentence that you need to tell a candidate of what this company does in terms of the mission, whether that's, you know, a specific goal the organization has for that year or that quarter or whatever that looks right, right? That you are fully aligned to that corporate or

the employer brand. And I like aligning corporate and employer brands anyway. So I don't like having different messaging. I like creating alignment between a corporate and employer brand. And that in itself is a story that you're telling. And you don't have much time. Usually these sessions are 25 minutes. And so if you're going to spend 20 minutes telling the candidate the story about the company, then you've wasted your own time and their time because you've asked them nothing, right? You've not made any space for them.

Eero (10:28.581)
I like to create an alignment between a corporate and a joint venture. And that is the topic of the story that you write. And you don't have to do that. Usually we have sessions for 25 minutes. And so if you're going to be 20 minutes telling the story of the company, then wait 30 minutes, right? Because you've asked for something, but you've not made the right choice. And so it's really about having the right time.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (10:50.872)
to talk and to share their story. And so it's really about having a very meaningful story right in the beginning of the call. And it's got to be impactful and short. And that's usually how I start my interviews, telling them the story. Why are we hiring for the role? What is the bigger mission here? And why did I join the company? And I feel like that's usually the pull that you need to go into this conversation with someone also might feel a bit more comfortable.

Eero (11:12.133)
I feel like that's usually the pull that you need for going into a conversation. Because I might feel as a conference host, instead of doing an interview with you, people always think of you as a piece of your weave, a piece of your style, as well as whatever you can say, and has a really good... has a... I think you would. But is it a better position, right?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (11:19.256)
in sitting in this interview with you, which always the interviewer, the interviewee versus the interviewer, one of us always has a, what do you call it, has a, I can't think of the word, but is in a better position, right? The person interviewing the candidate has all the cards on the table. The interviewee needs to prove so much to this individual.

Eero (11:43.077)
Thanks for your attention.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (11:47.992)
And so it's so important that you make space for that storytelling in the beginning to also make the candidate comfortable in the conversation and not start straight to the questions.

Eero (11:59.077)
Yeah, there's a super interesting point that you mentioned about sharing the story why I joined the company. So what I actually noticed or have noticed in the hiring process is when you have a hiring manager who is basically telling the story to the candidate why they joined, in a way they remind themselves why they're here. And this is super powerful. They get more motivated like, oh, this is so awesome. This is...

This is why I joined. In a way, I have forgotten it, but this is, I think, very powerful for also maintaining those hiring managers because they can have this emotion again or remind why they are here. Hopefully, it's a positive response that means they're in the right place. If they don't want to be here anymore, of course, then it's very hard to get people also.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (12:45.368)
Yeah.

Eero (12:55.301)
Because I have seen that also, or at least heard that there is hiring managers who's going to be in the interviews super demotivated and then they will get nobody to join it because they feel also they don't want to be here. But maybe there is two perspectives, I think, what happens. One is that I have heard or seen that the hiring managers, the whole interview, they will tell the story of the company.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (13:13.304)
Yeah.

Eero (13:25.157)
and the candidate can't say anything. And then the opposite is that they ask everything and the candidate gets nothing to know about the company. So what are the main mistakes maybe that the interviews make?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (13:37.848)
Yeah, I think it's about over talking. I even think certain questions are too long and asking too many questions in one interview is really not a good strategy. I usually limit my questions to three or four questions and it seems so low, but I love using the star -based method, which is basically the situation, task, action and result, but I weave storytelling into it, right? And the result that I want from that,

is to understand how someone thinks, how they've handled certain situations. And many people have said to me, but they can tell you any story. But if you say to someone, right, in a live conversation, tell me about a time where you disagreed with someone and then you keep quiet, right? It's really difficult for them to just go make up some nonsense. It's much easier to go and rely on an actual situation that has happened and how they tell that story.

Eero (14:26.277)
Thank you.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (14:36.12)
is also going to be very telling on their communication skills. So I love keeping my questions really short and really not lead the conversation too much. I've seen in interviews that I've even been interviewed for where someone would lead with this very long question and nearly give me direction of what they want me to go into versus just saying to me,

Eero (14:43.749)
really not need the conversation too much. I've seen an interview that I've even been in, you know, an interview before, where someone with me, who's a very lost Christian, and nearly gives me no reason to...

This is the same.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (15:01.048)
you know, tell me about a time where you didn't get along with someone or tell me about a time where you disagreed with someone on your team. What happened? And then all of a sudden this person has to start telling the story and the authenticity of that by just keeping quiet and listening also helps set the pace. I use a very structured approach for interviewing. It's never unstructured. And the reason I do that is because it's part of inclusive and equitable interviewing.

Eero (15:09.797)
And then all of a sudden, the person has to find Alex's story. And the authenticity of that is I just keep it quiet and listen to the book to help me understand the paper. I use a very structured approach. It's never unstructured. And the reason I do that is because it's hard to make a good point of the theory when you're completely understructured. Right? I think you need the door open for too much casual conversation.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (15:29.272)
When you're completely unstructured, right, I think you leave the door open for too much casual conversation and bonding with certain candidates versus others. And so my structure is usually as follow, right? I start the conversation by introducing myself. I tell them the format of the interview and I tell them how much time I'll be spending with them and the fact that I usually like making notes.

Eero (15:39.333)
funding for specific training and service coverage. And so that structure is usually followed by a classic conversation using my colleagues and my colleagues' interviews and my colleagues' final opinion on things and the fact that I usually like things, right? Or is it an AI rotate?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (15:56.312)
Or if there's an AI note taker, that there will be an AI note taker on the call and if they're comfortable with that, right? And so usually I would start like that, set the tone, I'll be taking notes or there's a note taker, are they comfortable with that? And that also means I might mute at times just to actively listen to them, right? Or to reduce noise if I'm in a noisy place or my puppies are running up and down in my office or these kids at home, et cetera.

Eero (16:00.933)
And so usually I will start back. I'll be taking notes.

Eero (16:15.941)
What to reduce noise is land, even where we come from, you know, where we came from. I'm happy to be running up and down some office. We've seen the time we've spent at my station social support. And I think probably we can have that like, for the first four months, we're going to introduce you a little bit to the company and what we do here and the role.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (16:24.536)
I might set the tone for the call. And I then tell them what's going to happen. Like first and foremost, I'm going to introduce you a little bit to the company and what we do here and the role and why I'm meeting with them that day. So with them, the talent acquisition partner, the hiring manager, and really set the process from the start. I always ask someone, hey, do you have any questions before we start? Or do you need to grab water or something to drink? Do you want to stretch your legs? And it's interesting how many people say yes.

Eero (16:38.245)
without the public. The position partners, the hiring managers, we need to take care of them. I always hope that you have any questions, please start giving me that water, I need to drink, I need to stretch my legs, and it's interesting how people can make it. I know a lot of people literally are, again, I don't have water, I need to stretch my legs, I need to grab water, and that's great, because we need to make it easier to heal and to move to the right. Next slide.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (16:54.552)
I've had people literally go, yes, I don't have water, literally, and jump up and grab water. And that's great that I'm creating space for them to feel more comfortable to make, to make space for just being human, right? Or to stand up, mute their camera or whatever and stretch their legs. And, and then I go into my, after my initial story, I go into my star based questions. And as I said, three or four questions is more than enough if you stop talking on time.

And interestingly, this is also a really good time to see how candidates are answering your question and how they're actively listening, how they're communicating and whether they are completely going off topic. It's easy to go into a rabbit hole of information, right? But it's genuinely important in a company that's asynchronous, global distributed to be able to go to come back to.

Eero (17:26.053)
The interesting thing is, difficult to read the slides, because we haven't had any response to a question, and how they actively listen in, how they communicate it, and whether they are completely going for the topic. It's easy to go into a rabbit hole in the direction. But, generally, it's important for a company that's facing a global controversy to be able to come back into conversation and back to the solution.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (17:53.016)
conversation and back to the question that was asked. And that is an indicator. If I'm working on a role that is highly focused on attention to detail in the financial team, right? If someone keeps going off topic and becomes quite disorganized in their communication with me, it is an indicator for me on whether they're going to be able to stay on topic when we're having a deep data conversation about headcount planning, or if it's an FPNA role, right?

Eero (18:04.837)
Right. If someone gets away from the topic and becomes a person who knows the unique communication of the key, it isn't indicative of whether they're going to be able to sell copies when they're having a key data conversation about get -together funding for the SDA framework, right? And just look around and see what's going on.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (18:23.)
And this is also right in the beginning, why I ask candidates if they have any questions or if there's anything that I need to know or be aware of upfront. We usually ask that in the application process anyway, right? So making space for neurodiversity and other elements is important too. If someone says to you outright, look, you know, I have...

Eero (18:30.117)
that I need to know or be aware of. We usually are studying that in the application process anyway, right? And I think states or neurodiversity and other elements are important too. If someone makes you upright, you know, I have, or I have guys who are ADHD and I'm like struggling to concentrate during the conversation today, it's okay. It's the fact that they're mentioning that, it's okay.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (18:48.344)
or I am diagnosed with ADHD and I might struggle to concentrate during the conversation today. It's okay. The fact that they mentioning that also makes space for me to adapt my interviewing style to that and not to read too much into the rabbit hole conversations that might happen or the fact that they might ask you to repeat a question. That's completely okay, right? And so it's just about assessing the person in front of you for the role that you're hiring for. It's nothing more. It's not about other candidates.

Eero (18:59.397)
And that's a reason to merge into the radical conversation that might happen, or the fact that we are all in this together.

Just about as they think of this, it means right to you for the job that you're doing. It's nothing more. Not about other candidates. Not about people's jobs. And so just make the space for those things. Do you any maybe really feel a need? The last few years, I think. And then I would just say that if you have the right to question, and you've got the right to question, then you can get so much information. And you go to that next.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (19:18.328)
It's not about the people in the role. And so just making space for those things has genuinely really served me the last 10 years in tech. And then I would just say with those three or four questions, if you ask the right questions and you stop talking quick enough, you can get so much information through that method. What I do with my star -based questions though, I do align them back to values -based.

Eero (19:41.637)
What I do is like stop making questions. I do a lot of things back to value based. I really don't know if the company's value is going to make that question. Or if the company is going to make skills with financial wealth, skills with wealth, company -wide sports skills. And if exactly you have a question, I'll do that so that I would be able to see. And I'd just rather be obvious, stop making questions. That's helpful.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (19:46.872)
So I look at the company's values and I adapt my questions to that. Or if the company is assessing specific skills, whether that's the role, skills in the role or company -wide core skills, I then adapt my interview questions to that so that I'm assessing those things and not just randomly asking style -based questions. That's not helpful either.

Eero (20:11.909)
So keeping quiet, this is quite hard for people, I think, in general, because quiet is quite uncomfortable. So for example, if you ask a question, and then it takes time to think, you already want to add some additional information because being quiet is uncomfortable. But coming back, last episode, we actually talked about the

Having the main competencies for a candidate or the role that you need to fill and also having a scored card. Do you use that to come up with those three to four questions or how do you come up with those main questions that you want to ask?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (20:54.904)
Yeah, absolutely. At Camunda, we have a hiring briefing and in the hiring briefing, all our questions are designed before any position goes live. So the position cannot be on our careers page or on LinkedIn or advertised anywhere in the world unless that briefing is completed. And that means every single interview stage has specific questions designed for that interview.

So whether you're doing a technical assessment or a functional assessment, or whether you're doing a values aligned interview, right? Or whether you're doing a screening call, we have an entire questions bank to support hiring managers and our talent acquisition partners. And we've adapted that question bank back to values, back to core skills, back to competencies, back to technical skills even, right? So that if an engineer.

Eero (21:35.013)
to set up a definition on this. And we've adapted that question back to values, back to core skills, back to confidence in how to do technical skills. So that's been a major response from the Institute of the Year, the future Institute of the Year, for particularly for the role that the question of peace, and how do you see the focus of any piece in that decision to have a team that's right for the job that you make?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (21:48.12)
for example, is assessing a peer, a future engineer, for technically for the role that those questions are prepared, that the planning is there, that we've over communicated that that is the interview we're having next, right? So the candidate can make space in the calendar day mind, right? For something more technical, that's quite, that takes a lot of heavy lifting from the candidate side. And that can be.

can be quite draining if you're having an exceptionally busy workday. So that preparation is crucial. I really like being public about the interview process. So I really like telling candidates what to expect. At GitLab, we even had some of our questions available publicly. And so we were really upfront about even some of the questions we would ask a candidate. And some folks felt like that was over preparation.

Eero (22:34.341)
So we were really upset about even the questions we were wanting to answer. And sometimes I find myself in a different situation. But interestingly enough, most of our students are Christian, and they're not from the Republic. And that's why we're even really disappointed. So I think I'm going into the question of whether we should be supporting those institutions. And I'm sitting here waiting for Mrs. Ahari to ask managing interviews to those questions.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (22:43.736)
But interestingly enough, it wasn't about preparing for those questions if some of the examples are public, because none of the questions were ever really the same, right? If I'm going into a functional assessment versus a technical assessment, those things would look different. If I'm sitting in a screening call versus a hiring manager interview, those questions look different. And so collectively, it becomes a very inclusive process. But class doors also become the place where a lot of questions

Eero (23:09.925)
Yeah, I started to think about having the questions up front and I was thinking, like if you think about the real life, so in real life you have a problem, you go find a solution. And if in a way if you ask,

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (23:13.496)
get posted by candidates. And so it's not about hiding those things any longer, in my opinion.

Eero (23:37.861)
questions on spot and they don't know the answer, then you say, okay, you're not good enough or you don't have the knowledge. But in real life, they would have the time to find answers. I'm just thinking like, in a way, maybe it's even fine to even have like this complicated questions up front. Of course, somebody can help them out like that. That is the risk maybe that but if in a work somebody helps them up, it's fine also. So in a way, I know.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (24:06.648)
Yeah.

Eero (24:06.917)
I actually in the university, I learned civil engineering. And some of the cases or most of the cases, like when I was in high school, I had to learn all the equations, like how to do math. But in there, we are allowed to use our materials. And if I would become a civil engineer and I would do those things, I would also have those tools to use. So in a way, I think this can be fine.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (24:36.152)
Yeah. Yeah. And if you're finding a candidate that is that efficient, that has gone above and beyond to prepare, right. And that's utilizing the tools available to them. Is that not a good indicator as well? Is it not someone that's going to add to the productivity or the efficiency of the team? I'm not sure. I think many people are so terrified of AI. I remember during last year, we had a candidate that

in the one of the videos that they submitted, they actually said that they used AI, but they decided to record how they used it. It was really interesting what they did. And so they used it as a tool. They didn't use it as the answer, right? They used it to build out a specific like direction for their talk or for their work sample or whatever that was that we were assessing at the time. That wasn't a commando. It was previously, right?

But it was really interesting how the candidate spoke and then showed via sharing their screen on how they went about it. And honestly, I felt like the transparency this candidate was willing to share on how they did it. They certainly got a next step because they literally decided to use the tools available that's free on the internet. They didn't use a paid tool. They didn't use something someone else wouldn't have access to. They were simply...

Eero (25:33.221)
It was really interesting how the technical team showed us where she and I can stand really good and share our experience. But how may we do that? And I'm not like the transparency, I mean they can show us. But they certainly got an exit because they were literally required to use the tools available free of internet. I mean you can't use tools, they can't use something like that. We love these activities. They were simply...

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (26:02.36)
just quite efficient in their process. They also had limited time, right, with a full -time role or whatever. And so I sometimes find some of these things could indicate efficiency and productivity as well when someone is really prepared and tells you what tools they use to come up with this concept. Yeah, we can't reinvent the wheel every day at work, right? We all borrow from great experiences that we've had in the past. That's what makes many people so unique in their journey.

Eero (26:04.677)
So also I had different times to be right on the same level with people. And so I had a lot of fun. It seems to indicate efficiency and productivity as well. It's really convenient and healthy for people who need to come up with different types of things. Yeah, we can't really, really bring it down. We will follow great insurance.

Yeah, you can definitely have benefits because

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (26:31.16)
And so I think it's completely okay to be more transparent about what's coming, like what's the process? What is it going to look like? What kind of questions can I expect? And it also creates trust in my opinion. If you're willing to share like from the outside in, I feel like it builds a certain type of trust and people are really interested in organizations like.

Eero (26:58.757)
let's say the role is not high stress and high, like, let's say changing a lot, like, so you don't have to be on the spot to solve some problems, like, so in a case, like, if somebody, let's say, chokes on the interview, because they don't have the information upfront, it might not actually matter. So, uh,

in real jobs. So in that way, if they have it up front, they can prepare well. So it probably depends on the role. But definitely, in that way, you can have more good candidates or at least see their qualification better if you have it up front. But I would like to move into this stage that we're talking about.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (27:42.456)
Yeah, absolutely.

Eero (27:48.837)
keeping it in 25 minutes, making space for candidates. So how do you lead interviews? How do you create the environment? Do you want to create the safe environment or it depends on the role?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (28:02.264)
Yeah, absolutely. So I think setting that tone upfront, telling a candidate right in the beginning of the call what's going to happen next really does support them. And when you say, I have, you know, we are going to, I'm going to tell you about the company and then I am going to ask you three to four questions and I'm going to leave space for questions. And you absolutely can ask anything during the question. If you tell them that's the format, stick to it because that also builds.

trust. It also builds a feeling of safety and comfort for the candidate and someone on the other side of the screen. Right. So stick to it. If you then have five questions, rather ask the candidate, oh, I actually just sort of another question. Can we proceed and can I ask you one more question? Indicate that you made a mistake or that you're asking more than what you said in the beginning. Right. And that in itself creates a very fluid conversation. It puts the candidate in the position.

Eero (28:41.285)
Thank you very much.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (29:01.112)
where you're also asking for their input because you're going outside of the boundaries of what you mentioned. If the call is going to run over, check your time. Make sure you as the interviewer are in control of the interviewer. And 10 minutes before the call is supposed to end, make sure that you're still on track so that you can ask the candidate then, hey, I think looking at what I still have to ask and leaving space for your questions, are you able to run?

Eero (29:07.269)
Thank you.

Eero (29:11.493)
you know, check this out and make sure you're in the...

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (29:29.496)
over for five to six minutes or five to 10 minutes. And if the candidate says no, it might be time to wrap up your questions and go over to their questions, right? So I like leaving at least 10 minutes for candidates to ask questions. If you rush that part of the interview right at the end, it prevents you from sharing further stories. It prevents you from really telling your experience and sharing your energy and excitement around this company.

Eero (29:33.445)
The candidate says no. It might be because the wrap up your question was well written. Right? So I like reading this. It's just an initial rush. That part of the question is like the end. Would you give me some good information to really tell me your experience and your energy?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (29:58.392)
So whether someone is going to ask you a question like, tell me about the team dynamic. Like, where is your team located? Right? If you have folks in seven or eight different countries, you're going to need to go there. You don't need to share names, but you can be like, oh, the team is spread over 10 time zone or seven time zones. We're in these different locations. And so you've got to leave space for those kind of conversations as well. And I don't like rushing candidate questions either, because it's there.

Eero (29:59.077)
So where the company's going to ask you a question like, how do you get the key dynamics? And you should see the case. If you have folks that are going to make this company, you don't need to go, you don't need to see it. You can be like one of the key experts over a time zone or a service time zone where you need to have your patient. And so you've got to leave space for those kinds of conversations as well. And I don't like rushing.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (30:28.088)
It's their opportunity to ask me anything, right?

Eero (30:33.893)
How do you look when Kenny did say it? I don't have any questions.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (30:40.632)
You know what, either it means that we had a really good conversation during the session, or they might say something like, Nadia, I read the entire handbook back to front. You've answered so many questions during our conversation today. I don't have further questions. I think that's different than saying I have no questions. Right. And so,

It's hard for me. It's hard for me not to have a bias when candidates say they have no questions because this is this one opportunity where in order to proceed to next steps, I want to make sure this person is really well prepared. And so there's so many questions you can ask. I would always encourage candidates to ask hiring managers or interviewers anything, right? But prepare, prepare like 10 questions beforehand.

Eero (31:19.205)
There's so many Christians you can ask. I would totally...

Eero (31:29.765)
Thank you.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (31:31.992)
Maybe you'll discover four of them during the process and then there's a chance to ask the other six, right? Or three of those six. But I would always recommend asking questions. I think it's natural. I think if you were walking into a building in a brick and mortar company that you wanna commute to every day, you would probably come prepared. And so for a virtual call, that counts as well.

Eero (31:38.405)
Thank you.

Eero (31:47.269)
If we could work with companies that you want to have a community through every day, you would probably come to pick. And so for a good -

Yeah, you said about the bias. I think in general, it's like a negative bias, if there is no questions. But I wonder if it's actually a solid sign of a negative red flag, let's say. Who knows?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (32:05.56)
It is. Yeah.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (32:12.376)
Yeah. I would also say if from a personality standpoint, if someone's an introvert, you can't push that person to ask you many questions because you're going to put them in the most uncomfortable position, right? So I recognize I have a bias when someone says to me they have no questions and our conversation was really short. But is it also an indicator to me that maybe the call didn't go as well as planned, right? I could maybe say to them,

if there's anything else that you can think of afterwards, why don't you reach out to us? So leave that space to say who to reach out to. Is it the recruiter? Is it the hiring manager? So that if they think of something and they're more comfortable with asynchronous questions, that they also have the space and means to do so. But then you have to do that consistently, right? To everyone. Can't do that for one candidate and not the others. So I do like leaving space for that in the end and just basically saying your talent acquisition partner is for example, Scott.

Eero (32:44.165)
.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (33:08.888)
So please reach out to Scott if you have any additional questions that you maybe think about afterwards. And so, but yeah, I must say, I sometimes struggle with that towards the end and I'll be real. It's very difficult when you're also interviewing for a high critical role and the person has zero questions. Like imagine you're interviewing a VP of finance, that's hard not to have a red flag, right? Surely this person wants to know about the ARR and the financials. So.

Eero (33:15.333)
Yeah, and that's it.

be real, be very difficult when you will be afraid to survive.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (33:37.08)
I do think there's some indicators and there's some personal things to check on yourself. Like, am I being biased? Is this an introvert? Should I go a step further to make them comfortable to reach out later?

Eero (33:51.205)
One of the best questions I've heard ever from one candidate. I don't remember it exactly, but I stole it. So we use it now from the company side, was that, is there any concerns you have, why you're like, might not hire me, or is there any problems I might have that I could maybe answer at the moment?

And actually, we have used this as a company, asking candidates, are there any red flags or concerns that you have at the moment that might make you not go through the process or not wanting to go forward? And then I think from both sides, it's a super good question, because in that way, you can go and give feedback or talk about those concerns and maybe

It's not the match, but maybe there's something, information you're just missing or something that can be solved. So I think this is the best question that I've ever heard from a candidate.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (34:52.696)
Yeah.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (34:56.728)
Yeah, that is a really great question. And you're also leaving space for the company to then explore that. But don't you think it also impacts the brand, right? If you're willing to ask that question, like, have you experienced red flags today with us as a company, or do you have any concerns? By asking that, you're really turning the tables because usually that would be a candidate wanting to know what they're doing wrong, what's red flags on them. So really great question. I might use that in the future.

Eero (35:27.332)
So how can companies use storytelling to inspire potential candidates and increase their desire to join?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (35:38.008)
Yeah, so great question. I think authenticity is really important here. So if you're going to make up some nonsense story as to why you stayed, that's never going to work. I honestly think candidates can see through, through nonsense and BS, right? I really, really think authenticity is the one here. So I think it's about customizing that a little bit more towards what is important to you.

Eero (35:56.869)
Thank you.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (36:06.392)
And so a story that I've told many, many people was that I genuinely enjoy organizations that have a bigger mission. It can't just be a company that's making money. And at a stage in my career, I would, you know, get a lot of interest, especially during the pandemic. I would get a lot of interest from organizations that was interested in working with me based on my open source, get lab remote first experience.

Eero (36:27.077)
So if you're interested in working with me, please take the mic.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (36:33.048)
And as great as that felt, I did say no to many organizations at the time when I was exploring new opportunities, right? Where people did start reaching out to me. And something I learned through that experience is if there's a story where it's all about making money and just achieving ARR, I don't necessarily think that's a good story to tell.

Eero (36:51.781)
Thank you.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (36:58.584)
And so if you peel back the money element and you start looking at how are you impacting, how is your product impacting other companies and the people at those companies, right? That's potentially the right story to tell. A lot of candidates want to hear how this product is being used. And you recommend I literally recently read through some of our customer reference stories.

Eero (36:59.301)
And so if you peel back the many innumerable things you've talked about, how have you...

Eero (37:15.301)
a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (37:25.176)
And some of those stories could be a really good story to tell a candidate. If you are interviewing an engineer, I think I've used this example maybe in our previous session, right? But if you're interviewing an engineer, let's say for our connectors team here at Communda, right, who's building the open source tools and features for other engineers to use at amazing organizations like Atlassian.

Eero (37:45.509)
and features for other engineers to use at amazing organizations like Atlantean. It's important that you bring excitement to that engineer and community, so to say, you're literally getting impact the way the engineers at Atlantean use our products because you're building a good future of our products. Do you have any other questions about that? Right. So here's the story on this system that you're going to be talking about.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (37:52.76)
It's important that you bring excitement to that engineer that you're meeting with to say, you are literally going to impact the way the engineers at Atlassian uses our product because you're building the connectors feature of our product. Do you have any other questions about that? Right. So if you start plugging that story, how this person is going to impact all these other people, and it's true and it's factual, that is the right story to tell. So I really like in the beginning of the call,

Eero (38:15.429)
And it's true, it's a fact, it's true. That is the right story to tell. So I really like, in the beginning of the talk, talking about what's happening in history, then in that conversation, I really started to need questions, really started telling the first story about how this world is changing after the human race has changed. If you think about health and nutrition and a lot of the work that you're doing, a lot of these folks have realized that they're not safe anymore. And so...

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (38:21.944)
talking about what the company's mission is. But then in that conversation, when candidates are asking me questions, really start telling the story about how this role is going to impact the company. If you think about talent acquisition and a lot of the work that you're doing, a lot of these folks don't realize that they're the face of the company. And so if you're interviewing a talent acquisition partner, making sure they understand the contribution.

Eero (38:44.805)
If you're interviewing a television show sponsor, making sure they understand the contribution, the impact they're going to have, right? And the side effects of their role. If you're interviewing for a marketing agency, for a revenue company, right? The building of the, what is it, ADR or business development for ADR function. With that said, we might as well...

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (38:50.52)
the impact their role is going to have, right? And the side effects of their role. If you're interviewing for a marketing team or a revenue ops team, right? That's building out the, what is it? ADR or business development or SDR function. Without those folks, we can't call our customers, right? We won't be able to achieve these targets. That's the side effect. That's how important this role is.

Eero (39:13.477)
You're working on a group to be a public sector, public sector employee. So I think it is really about having the commission and looking at that next thing. What is the impact of the commission?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (39:18.264)
So I think it is really about selling the position and looking at that next step. What is the impact of this position on the bigger picture? Yeah. And so I really think it's about telling the factual story of the position itself. If it's a boring role, it's also okay to say so, but I can almost guarantee in every job in the world, there's a way to have an impact. I have seen it. And so it's about finding what is that impact.

Eero (39:29.541)
Yeah, there is definitely basically whatever you you're

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (39:47.32)
and drilling down on that.

Eero (39:59.045)
contributing into the society or making an impact. Of course, it can be a smaller one sometimes, but there is always an impact. What actually I have understood also that you actually, everybody has an impact because they have an impact around the people that they know, the friends and families and then so on. So whatever you do, you're always having some kind of impact. But I want to ask one, yeah, sorry.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (40:23.768)
Yeah. Yeah. But there's something else. I have one great example that I always forget about. Back at GitLab, even here at Kamunda, we often interview technical writers. And imagine you're able to share an example of what a technical writer would work on live in the conversation. So yes, there's open source material available. Yes, there was a prep for the interview. But if a candidate asks you,

Eero (40:28.613)
Yeah.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (40:52.824)
you know, a question about the actual work they'll be doing in their role. And you have an open source example. I'm not talking about sensitive examples or things that are in an internal database, but I'm talking about like something that's available publicly, open source that you can share with the candidate by screen sharing instantly and showing them an example adds so much value. And then sharing the link gives that person a complete idea of what would be expected of them.

Eero (41:01.797)
that I'll just get a seat for the minute.

Eero (41:06.757)
Thank you.

Eero (41:16.261)
they share it to make it a complete idea of what would be a different thing.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (41:21.816)
I recently had a question from a senior talent acquisition partner that asked me, you know, you mentioned that you have access to data, but what does your dashboard look like? And I got the feeling that this person didn't have a great experience previously with data and dashboards and being able to use it in their role, right? And I realized we had a dashboard that had no sensitive information on it. That was something that we've probably written about in a blog.

Eero (41:25.989)
Thank you.

you know, you mentioned that you have access to data.

Eero (41:37.957)
Thank you.

Eero (41:42.565)
Thank you.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (41:50.232)
or provided information about publicly. And so I was like, actually, I can show you this dashboard, right? And I shared my screen and I showed them what the dashboard was and what data do I use daily. And they were genuinely impressed that I had access to that kind of information and data, right? At this stage of a series B organization. And so I feel like behind those meaningful things that you are doing so differently as a hiring manager, as a talent acquisition partner, as a company.

and then plug that, show clear examples, show your work basically.

Eero (42:19.077)
Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that. Show us that.

Eero (42:25.221)
So what I wanted to peek into that we had our episode about psychology and then we were talking about also that depending where the economy is and then the overall like mood of the world, I would say there is like this mass low hierarchy of needs. So when everything is super good, the mission is definitely very important because people...

have the basic needs covered. But do you sometimes also, depending what's going on in the world, do you change that story to give more safety, for example, if they need that? What's your experience?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (43:10.008)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. If you think about what the world has gone through, what is it the last two to four years, right? And specifically all the layoffs we've seen, if your organization has had no layoffs, Commundo is one. So really proud about the fact that they're 10 years old and not has had a single layoff, right? If you have that story to tell, it's a really good story to tell from a...

a perspective of attracting critical talent, folks that might be in a position that are passive, that are not applying, that you saw strike, telling that story of the financial trajectory of the organization. And if you have public numbers that you can share, not organizations, not most, or a lot of startups are not public, right? But if you have information that is already publicly known as to what you're achieving in terms of ARR, that could be a good indicator.

Eero (43:38.789)
Thank you.

Eero (43:52.517)
And if you're not a public company, this is a machine, not a book potential. That's what a lot of providers are talking about. But if you have information that is already publicly known as to what you're achieving in terms of AR and AR, that could be a good indicator. And if it's not, if your company hasn't really achieved all those goals, then you're not going to be able to do anything.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (44:07.736)
And if it's not, if your company hasn't really achieved all those milestones, find things, find things as to what is different, what does set you apart? Is it the stock options? Is it the benefits that you're providing? Is it the flexibility? Is it the fact that you do have additional funding that is going, that has a runway of four years, right? Those things are attractive to many, many candidates.

Eero (44:14.245)
I think as to what is different, what does take your part? Is it the proper option? Is it the benefit of the digital money? Is it the flexibility? Is it the fact that you do have digital money that is going to have the right value for you in the future?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (44:34.2)
But I think the bigger mission of the organization still matters. So if your organization hasn't adopted and grown their mission or vision as an organization or goals in 10 years, that's also concerning, right? So if you're interviewing with a company that's never made any changes and has not shown good indicators of security and stability, it's okay. Like what is the company doing about changing that? And candidates do look for things like that.

Eero (44:35.237)
But it's a big initiative.

Eero (44:45.957)
in tenure, that also concerns you, right? So if you disagree with the company, just never make any changes, and as much as we can make changes, it's okay, right? What is the company doing?

Yeah. How do you, what, how do you usually, I'm going back to this question of, so I understood you usually start from telling the story where you joined and then giving what's gonna be happening in the interview. What I actually like to do is I usually do the opposite. So I start from the candidate.

I ask all the questions to understand how they work, what is important for them. And then I do the pitch based on this, like, and then I tell the parts that I know that they are interested in. And so, so I usually, I build it around, you know, it's like a sales technique because first you learn about the customer or the client or the candidate, and then you tell them what they actually care about. Like, so this is how I usually like to do. So.

I usually try not to do any pitch in the beginning, but then I do this part what I want to tell them about, and then I ask, what do you want to know more? And this is how I've been doing at least my interviews.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (46:15.)
Yeah, that's a great message. I think for me, because I saw so many candidates that are critical for specific roles in the company and sometimes also at our direct and up level, I think it's really important in the beginning that I bring comfort to why I asked them for a call. Right. And so that's actually why I do some storytelling in the beginning of the call. It's also my opportunity to

to plug specific language, to share specific insight into the organization that I'm truly excited about. If you're at a director or VP level of an organization and you will know this, there's a lot of things that will excite you about a company and there's a lot of reasons why you would stay at a specific company, nevermind join, right? What is the one thing that makes you stay at a company, right? And starting a conversation about sharing a bit more about

Eero (46:46.085)
Thank you.

Eero (46:51.653)
You know, if you're at a direct service, you need to recognize the station. You can close it.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (47:12.344)
company and why you're there and why you want to speak to them, I think is part of selling as well. But I like your thinking. I worry about does it become unstructured? And so does it change from candidate to candidate? And so my level of inclusive interviewing is probably like my bar for it is really, really high. But I think adapting it to figuring out what is it that candidate is interested in.

Eero (47:24.133)
and so that's the champion candidate.

Eero (47:34.757)
That's it.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (47:40.44)
does probably pull a lot of people that are quite passive in the workforce that isn't necessarily just applying for roles.

Eero (47:41.573)
I love you.

Eero (47:49.061)
Yeah, the questions are always the same for the candidates, but no promise on the pitch side. So it's probably depends also what's my mood and how I feel, how much I want to talk and how excited I am. And so that is probably more not so consistent. But to wrap up the topic, like what are the main tips about interviewing you would like to say or give to the listeners?

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (47:53.304)
Okay, good, good.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (48:16.92)
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I will also say, share just for any candidates listening, it's important that when you telling a story during all these questions that I mentioned today, that you, that you stick to answering the question. So if I'm asking you a very specific short question that you really focus on an example that's going to answer that question, and don't taper off, prevent speaking too long, because if that story is starting to have another story,

Eero (48:41.573)
I'm speaking too loud.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (48:45.816)
and go down a rabbit hole, it might let the interviewer, how do I say, lose focus on what your narrative is, what is the point you're trying to make and the story you're telling. And I see a lot of candidates still do that today, right, all the time. And so I think it's important to stick to answering the question that an interviewer tells you. But for interviewers, I think preparation is key. I think consistency is key.

Eero (48:53.861)
Thank you.

Eero (48:59.845)
Thank you.

today twice as often. It's not that it's important to answer the questions that an interviewer tells you. But for interviewers, I think preparation is key. I do think you need to know what that story is. And if you don't, reach out to your marketing folks. But if you don't have a marketing team, if you're an artist, I think don't be an attention seeker. They don't know what it's really about.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (49:14.904)
I do think you need to know what that story is. And if you don't reach out to your marketing folks, like if you don't have a marketing team, speak to your CEO and ask them. I've seen so many talent acquisition partners that don't know what a CEO would tell a candidate. And if you have access to them or ask them in Slack in a public channel, like, Hey, if you have to share one sentence with candidates in every single screening call right now, what would it be?

Eero (49:33.285)
And we have access to them on a public channel like, hey, if you have to change one thing to calibrate every single printing post right now, what would it be? And then if that changes, and it's a new year, and there's a new post, what can you do again? Is that interesting? If one of the things you're doing is this for you, then I think you're missing an opportunity to align with how the story changes, how the mission of the year.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (49:44.376)
And then if that changes and it's a new year and there's a new goal, asking it again, right? Adapting with that company story. You can't tell the same story you did four years ago because then I think you're missing an opportunity to align with how the story changes, how the mission of the organization evolves. And so I think it's truly important that you know how to do that, how to plug a company and what is that boilerplate that you're using.

Eero (50:02.373)
So I think it's truly important to know how to combat the flood and the company and what is that toilet place that you can see in Muggerhead Beach.

Nadia Vatalidis, she/her (50:13.496)
in all your language.

Eero (50:17.765)
So that's it for the episode 9 of the ReLancer Podcast. If you like this episode, feel free to subscribe and share it. Thank you for tuning in and I hope to see you in the next one.